NCIS

Is it possible for the 'Pro's' and the 'Anti's' to get along? To be able to air out our differences and get along for once?

I want us all to be able to express our opinons without fear of reprisial from the other side. This is not a war, people.

Now, I am against any sort of relationship other then working and friendly between Tony and Ziva. At this point, I'm not even sure I want that. I think Ziva has a lot to answer for, and I'm not sure I still 100% trust her. Heck, I don't think I ever have. I feel I have every right to feel this way, and to speak out agains't any sort of pairing what so ever on this show. I think it would ruin the whole feel. I've seen more then one show ruined by romantic pairings.

I will admit that although I don't like it on this show, that is not to say that I have never become involved in a 'ship'. Of course I have. I'm not immune to it. It is just that most of mine have remained in my imagination and have never come to any sort of fruitision on screen. With the one glaring exception of Mulder and Scully on the X-Files.

And kind of , sort of, Rose and the Doctor....well, sort of the Doctor....you know what I mean.

Anyway, I can understand someone getting involved in such a thing as a 'ship'.

I just want it out there that I am agaisn't this one, and I don't feel that me liking any other pairing in other fandoms to be any sort of contradiction here. I don't feel Tony and Ziva would make a good pair. They would end up either killing each other or driving the rest of the team apart. In the end....killing the show.. and I don't want that.

Okay, so yes, I don't like Ziva. My reasons for this are many, but not something I want to go into there, becasue it has all been said before by other with better way of expressing themselves then me. Just take all their opinons and triple them.

And yes, I love Tony. For just as many more reasons as has been expressed by others as well.

I don't want to be fired at because I feel this way.

I want this topic to be used for all of us on both sides to be able to work these things out without any anger.

Is it possible for us to do this?

Well, Ziva is my favorite character and I do want to see Tony and Ziva together eventually. I could give just as many reasons why I like Ziva, as you can as to why you don't. Am I offended by your statements. Nope. I actually don't have a problem with the "antis" as a whole. What I have a problem with is the radical "antis". You said you don't like Ziva, a fictitious character. No problem. But, if you say you hate Cote DePablo, I have a problem. There are a few who have sunk so low as to attack the real person who portrays the character. This is a woman they do not know and most likely will never know. I find that behavior to be truly disturbing, and when I read it I intend to respond.

Well as the long time Tiva/GC bad guy I will reply to this later when I am more up to it .It will take a good long post and may bother some and I don't care to deal with it at this point or maybe this thread will die ,who knows but one thing we all don't need is another thread to fan the flames .

Group hug?

agent073 wrote:

Well as the long time Tiva/GC bad guy I will reply to this later when I am more up to it .It will take a good long post and may bother some and I don't care to deal with it at this point or maybe this thread will die ,who knows but one thing we all don't need is another thread to fan the flames .

I didn't create this topic to fame the flames, I created it so we could all try to get along for once. If you have no intention of doing so, I suggest you stay away from it.

gypsy4ever wrote:

agent073 wrote:

Well as the long time Tiva/GC bad guy I will reply to this later when I am more up to it .It will take a good long post and may bother some and I don't care to deal with it at this point or maybe this thread will die ,who knows but one thing we all don't need is another thread to fan the flames .

I didn't create this topic to fame the flames, I created it so we could all try to get along for once. If you have no intention of doing so, I suggest you stay away from it.

I'm glad you did and am all for it.But I have been around here long enough to know how it can turn out .Odds are it will be another Ziva bashing thread ,not on your part.Give it time.

All I ask it no angry reprisals from either side for something said that someone or the other might not agree with. Yes, some things may be said about Ziva, but that is the posters right to express their opinion, as it is your right to be positive. All if fair.And the way I see it, even if we can not all agree about Ziva, at least we can about Tony.

gypsy4ever wrote:

All I ask it no angry reprisals from either side for something said that someone or the other might not agree with. Yes, some things may be said about Ziva, but that is the posters right to express their opinion, as it is your right to be positive. All if fair.And the way I see it, even if we can not all agree about Ziva, at least we can about Tony.

I'm always positive ,look at the threads I have made.All positive.

Im not for Tiva, Im not against Tiva, Ill watch NCIS until it gets the boot, until no more episodes are made. I dislike the Ziva-bashers as their taunts and riots about the character get repetitive and frustrating. Yes, she fights. Yes, she lied. Get over it. Ziva will probably never betray the team again, unless SB really needs the ratings. Shes here to stay! But yes in the end, your all my friends, I hate all the fighting that goes on.

agentharry9 wrote:

Lets try for a little balance here. These arguments don't usually break out when people talk about their own opinions. Its when they try to control other people's thoughts or posts that is the problem

Im not for Tiva, Im not against Tiva, Ill watch NCIS until it gets the boot, until no more episodes are made.

No problem here. A clear statement personal statement. Nothing more

I dislike the Ziva-bashers as their taunts and riots about the character get repetitive and frustrating.

Here we are running into more dangerous ground. You are suggesting that somone elses opinion is repetivive and frustrating without considering that they may find yours equally so. Your post assumesthat your point of view is valid and interestingshould be here whilst an opinion you disagree with is 'repetative and frustrating and so should not.

Yes, she fights. Yes, she lied. Get over it.

And now we are on to telling somone what to do or think. just because this is your opinion, why should anyone else have to agree with it and shut up? Why should people not talk about htis aspect of the show if they want to? You don't have to agree and/or join in but you don't have the right to stop them and trying will cause the sort of rows that everyone is trying to stop.

Ziva will probably never betray the team again, unless SB really needs the ratings. Shes here to stay! But yes in the end, your all my friends, I hate all the fighting that goes on.

And if you carry on enjoying your own opinions and let everyone else enjoy thir's then the fighting is unlikely to start again.

I don't have a problem with 'Pros'. This isn't West Side Story or anything -stick to your side or there's bound to be trouble .Besides it'snot Tiva vs No Tiva as much as it is opinion A vs. opinion B. If the argument isn't Tiva it's Tony vs. McGee, or whether long or short story archs are best, or the idea of romance on the show in general. What I have a problem with is people's utter lack of respect for differing points of view. I don't like being told to 'get over it' or 'that it's just a tv show' (I know what I'm watching) or ' that if Idon't like what I saw I should just stop watching'. It irks me when people try to tell me how to feel. I also don't like when people are told they aren't true fans because they don't like a certain aspect of the show. There's things I like and dislike with just about everything. This all or nothing approach doesn't apply in most situations and Idon't think it applies here. I don't like when people are called stupid, or immature etc for posting what they think. Equally annoying are the fights that erupt over simple misunderstandings (where the original poster refuses to apologize or admit they misinterpreted what was said) and star counts. I'm not laying blame on any side (Pros or Antis or Noromos) because that's not what I think this whole thing is about anyway. I don't have a problem talking to anyone on this board as long as I'm not being disrespected.

rxtech51 wrote:

Well, Ziva is my favorite character and I do want to see Tony and Ziva together eventually. I could give just as many reasons why I like Ziva, as you can as to why you don't. Am I offended by your statements. Nope. I actually don't have a problem with the "antis" as a whole. What I have a problem with is the radical "antis". You said you don't like Ziva, a fictitious character. No problem. But, if you say you hate Cote DePablo, I have a problem. There are a few who have sunk so low as to attack the real person who portrays the character. This is a woman they do not know and most likely will never know. I find that behavior to be truly disturbing, and when I read it I intend to respond.

Have we ever been able to establish what actor bashing constitutes? I know I've argued that I'm entitled to say: "I don't like Jude Law's body of work, or his attitude in interviews, or the film choices he makes". (Using Jude Law as a non-emotive example in this instance). If someone gives an interview, one is entitled to take a view on that interview, and not like it. I made this point before but got jumped on as if I was urging "bashing".

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David Duchovny gave a couple of interviews in his XF days that made me not like what he said and not get a very nice sense of him as a person. I don't really perceive me having those impressions and saying so as bashing. Do we have to like everything they say?

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I agree, to dislike an actor simply *because* they play a character you dislike is immature. But people can be a little too quick to fling around accusations of bashing in my view. I have said a few times that there have been ways MW has played scenes that I really haven't liked (there are a couple I can't even watch again as they hit my embarrassment squick too much!). Is that MW bashing? Tony is my favourite character, and I have a very favourable opinion of MW from interviews. I have noticed there is a bit of a double standard about noticing or caring about what is perceived as "bashing". Sometimes photos appear of the actors and actresses and people have an opinion on their clothes - I've seen it for MW ANDfor CdP, but when it's CdP it's perceived as "bashing" but not for MW.

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To me, bashing would be: "CdP looked like a tart in that dress. I can't stand the ****." But not:"I didn't like that dress she was wearing. I didn't think the colour suited her, and I know she's got lovely legs, but I just kept thinking how cold it must be at this time of year!"

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And I feel I'm entitled to say: "I hated what MW said in that interview, because that didn't chime with my view of Tony at all." But bashing would be:"MW is a total moron who can't open his mouth without talking crap."

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And frankly, even if people DO "bash", there are ways of saying to them, "Uh, I think that's gone too far" without it all becoming so heated and personal. I know I apologised in a thread yesterday if my words had been misleading or given the wrong impression. But if someone had come at me and said "You COW! How DARE you!" then I think I'd have been a lot less inclined to offer such an apology. And the written word can lose some meaning - if one was in a room with people, facial expressions and body language might give a completely different impression to the exact same words which when read onscreen can come over not quite as intended.

abbykadabby wrote:

I don't have a problem talking to anyone on this board as long as I'm not being disrespected.

I think that's at the crux of it. I think some people have problems with the notion of argument and debate as essentially being a back and forth expression of opinions that both sides do NOT have to agree on, OR reach any agreement on. Resolution does not have to occur. But some of us enjoy discussing things just for the sake of expressing our views and hearing others express theirs. They do not HAVE to agree with our own and it does not have to go anywhere in particular.

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What I have found frustrating is being told what I may think or say, and when others try and lay down what can and can't be expressed. And when they take it personally. I don't mind being disagreed with and going back and forth in debate, but I don't like insults being thrown around or personal attacks. I think there have been far fewer of these lately though - and I've been on several threads here where Tiva/Ziva isn't mentioned at all, or only in passing, and we've all talked happily about other things without argument - or even with a good dose of healthy debate.

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I know at times I've been so frustrated that I've been more flippant or sarcastic than I should have been, and I regret that. In all cases I felt provoked, but even so, I don't think it's a helpful response on my part. On the other hand I can be quite playful in my language so I'm at pains to try and make it clear that I'm just trying to keep a light perspective on the topic rather than mocking anyone.

I applaud yet another honest and honorable attempt to try to reduce the rhetoric and growing hostilities between the well established Pro's vs Anti's. This is a classic example of a "WIN-"LOSE" "circular argument" and as such it will never end until one side or the other concedes, shuts up-shuts down, or just leaves-OR if the ratings somehow take a dive and Shane B. has to change to survive and recover. I think the majority of fandom still remain in the "neutral" don't care, not involved-just love the show. I am sometimes an "Anti" and more often strive to remain "neutral". I am not fan of "Tiva" - well known fact. But I have never put down CDP as an actress (she deserves applause and all rewards given for playing a very complicated female character). I have never been a big fan of "Tony" (although I likewise applaud MW for his great talents and skills in portraying this character) simply because I have never been a big fan of the macho-bravado Men who are serial womanizer's (fictional or real) and who push "I am better than you" persona. AND this includes Leroy Gibbs on occasions when he goes "overboard" in this dimension. I have never understood why DB created the "Ziva David" role and struggle still as to "why" they needed to create this Lady Character who to me is so out place in NCIS (hey, if it was CIA no problemo). Disliked Jenny as a director - NOT because she is a "woman" but because she did not fit either (a former lover of someone who reports to you ? And the never resolved issue as to why she kept the Ziva David character long after the Ari story arc was concluded). The McGee recreation, the Gibbs transformation, Vance the new super-man Director, all established in the new and improved "Team Gibbs" in season 7. The evolution of a supposed "Team Gibbs" into the "Family Gibbs" and Shane B's obsession with spending so much time in the majority of episodes since he took over to create complicated (and never closed loops....) background story arc's regarding everyone's private lives and love lives. With the majority of this being spent on only three characters (need I list them ? okay-Gibbs, Ziva and Tony). Along with the fight with the pro-Ziva, pro-Tiva, fan base (which started IMO deliberately by Shane B. with the last half of season 6 and the incredible start with the first three episodes of season 7) I still get called out when I ask " where is the "Team" that so many proclaim still exists ?

Rambled enough - stated my side-sorry for the long winded tirade. I will conclude then. I hold Shane B. ultimately accountable and am convinced he "knows" and "loves" what he is doing including getting the fandom riled up and feudin', fussin' and continually fightin'. And I agree that being Number 1 and 2 with 18-21 M fans is proof that what SB has created is what the majority of American TV viewers want. I will remain then a "long term, first generation, NCIS Fan" (sorry - just cause I don't love it does mean I have to leave it)but one of those who have become an "occasional" weekly watcher in season 7. All based on if the previews lead me to believe we will have a crime investigation episode and a complete "Team Gibbs" view opportunity . They have had a few great Team episodes in season 7 (not soapy-nor days of our lives incarnate or laden with ST/UST). I hope they have more. And when all is said and done a successful season 7. ALL of the incredible actors/actresses on NCIS deserve that. I applaud them ALL for their hard work in playing so many complicated and conflicted characters (hey, is anyone "normal" in team Gibbs ?). Just because "I" don't get my way does not mean I will take my remote and go elsewhere.

I have 3 problems with the Antis - and I don't think we'll ever get along until the antis get over these issues:1. They seem to dislike the show in general. Many Anti-Tiva discussions spiral down into a heated discussion about everything in general that's wrong with NCIS (characters, story lines, arcs, writers, etc.). And they blame all the real or perceived problems on Ziva and/or Tiva. The atmosphere over here in GC is so negative it's no fun to come here and read the comments. Just sayin'.2. They insist that any pro-Tiva comment be kept to the Shippers' section. IF anyone dares to even say they liked a Tiva scene in an episode (just their opinion, not shoving it down anybody's throat), the Antis jump all over it and get upset. Apparently, GC is off limits to Pro-Tivas!And yet, anti-Tiva commentary abounds.3. They assume they are intellectually superior because they're not teenage squee-ers. Such an assumption is ridiculous because clearly, both the Pros and the ANtis come from all different ages, walks of life and countries. Just because someone has a more romantic view of life (and appreciates a romance in their favorite crime drama) does not automatically reduce them to an immature drooling imbecile.