Criminal Minds

I admit, Patinkin is a hard act to follow. I imagine they interviewed a lot of actors trying to find someone up to snuff to play the new guy, and I think Joe M. was a wise choice. He's a great actor, and he knows he's got to change expectations for his character from what everyone loved about Gideon, and make Rossi acceptable in a different way. Everyone loved Gideon, and Rossi's rough and clashes with everyone. But he's slowly finding his niche in the team and learning (the character) how to interact with the other team members better. He worked with Reid and Garcia to solve the case this time and play Jason Alexander's character, instead of going it alone. And in a way, he asked Hotch's permission to stay on the case this time instead of just doing whatever he wanted (he explained himself for a change). We're watching the evolution of this character, which is why he's so much of each episode right now. The other characters have already had years for us to get to know, and Rossi is playing catch-up here. I'm sure when the writers feel Rossi has integrated, the episodes will become a little more balanced.I read elsewhere in the forum someone saying Morgan needs some more episodes about his personal life, and I agree. I hope that's the next character they focus on giving us some insights on. I feel pretty comfortable with all the gals at this point (except, of course, the new one Todd), and they've just given us a lot to chew over with Reid. I think they're working up to something with Hotch, but I'm not sure what yet. He's going through medical problems with the hearing loss and insomnia, but I think there's still going to be some fall-out over his divorce and trying to spend time with his kid that they haven't delved into yet. I got a little scared that Morgan might be leaving when he was offered that NY position in the season closer & opener; I certainly hope he's not going anywhere. There's so much they could still do with him; we barely know the guy, after all! I think Derek should be who they delve into next.

xzonia wrote: We're watching the evolution of this character, which is why he's so much of each episode right now. The other characters have already had years for us to get to know, and Rossi is playing catch-up here. I'm sure when the writers feel Rossi has integrated, the episodes will become a little more balanced.

You know, if that's what they're doing* I can't understand that strategy. The whole idea of a new character needing to play catch-up. I mean, why should the experience of knowing Rossi be sped up, when we went through the years to know the other characters? Why can't he unfold just like any other character -and the space of any other? Also, considering that Prentiss was also new and could have benefited from the catch-up thing, how come when she was first on, she didn't have multiple episodes about her? But, I would have protested that, too. Not the idea of Prentiss episodes, the idea of pushing the new person on the audience to catch them up with the older cast. Arguably, If I've known somebody for 5 years, it stands to reason that I'd know that person better than somebody else I've known for only a year. And, I wouldn't feel the need to have massive conversations and intense periods of one on one time with the one year person just to feel like I've known both people the same amount of time. I wouldn't have. So, I don't see why TV would do that. Grudgingly, I'll say Rossi deserves some episodes and for the character to be better known, but to catch up to people we've known for 4 years? Why can't he be someone we've known for one year? That's what he is. Why try to pretend something different? *Although, fortunately, after his first 3 episodes (the vile and horrid trifecta - and wasn't that catch up enough? Heck, he didn't just catch up in time and focus there, he soared ahead of everyone like an Olympic gold medalist track star) I do think the show has pulled back on the Rossi, Rossi, Rossi, our world revolves around Rossi!!! There are actually some episodes in season 3 where Rossi doesn't have a big presence (I think he's particularly "blink and you'll miss him" in Elephant's Memory) and even the ones where he has bigger parts aren't ALL ABOUT ROSSI. And, yeah, this episode was very much a Rossi episode, but I don't think he had that much focus in Mayhem or The Angel Maker or The Instincts -no more than anyone else in the cast. (I'd say that about Catching Out and Paradise, but I don't like those episodes that much, so I don't remember them that well) So, if they were doing the catch up thing, I think they've pulled back, and good thing too (catching up one character just sidelines the characters that people have formed loyalties to - which to me is a recipe in backfiring efforts to get people to be interested in the new person.). So, I wouldn't consider Masterpiece an attempt to catch him up, it was simply a Rossi episode, which he's unfortunately entitled to every once in awhile - as are all the characters.spoiler -> In an upcoming episode, they're going to deal with Morgan's past as a Chicago cop (unsubs are targeting cops) and there will be flashbacks to Morgan as a child and his dad - probably flashbacks to when his dad was killed. <-spoiler

I wasn't trying to say Masterpiece alone, on its own, was a catchup episode, but rather the preponderance of Rossi in almost all the episodes when he first began the show was an attempt to help the audience get to know him better and develop the character. They did do the same thing with Emily, up to the point that I was starting to get a bit tired of her before Rossi joined the team. She just didn't annoy you the way Rossi clearly does, so it didn't bug you that she was in almost every scene and had several episodes about herself and her family.(I mean, come on! Em's mom, played by Kate Jackson, has already appeared in the show twice, which is more than we've seen Morgan's mom, btw, or any of Penelope's family. Didn't Penelope say once that she has 5 brothers?) And since Rossi joined the show, we've had the episode where Em and Reid were taken hostage together, which seemed to me to focus mostly on Emily. Pre-Rossi, the whole subplot with her maybe working with she-who-will-not-be-named to oust Hot from his position gave her character a lot of focus too.Which is not to say I don't like Emily. I'm just saying they're doing for Rossi what they did for her. And it's also common in Hollywood for newbies on shows to get more lines and/or scenes when they first enter a long-running show because the other actors have been doing the show for a while and no longer mind that their character might be getting fewer lines. When new shows first start, oftentimes the actors want to get as much on-air time as possible, but if a show is long-running, they don't mind the down-time of shooting fewer scenes or even not being in an episode or two. It's a common phenomenon in TV (and yes, I watch far too much TV - lol). I would agree that they are starting to back off a little on Rossi now; we're not seeing him constantly like when the show first brought him on. And if they're planning on permanently replacing JJ with Todd, then we'll probably see episodes centering around Todd more too, but from what I've read online it seems like they plan to keep JJ (yeah!), and she's just out on maternity leave. I think they're working towards bringing back a balance between the characters again, one or two episodes about this character, one or two about that one, like it was done the first few seasons. I hope they tell us more about Morgan next.

On the whole it was a quite good episode. Jason Alexander [Rothchild] played quite a creepy guy even though he looked a bit like Col Sanders. Near the end of the episode I was worried that the rest or the team were in danger & Rossi had completly underestermated Rothchild partly due to Rossi's arrogance. I suppose it's going to happen that an unsub/their relative or friend is going to try for revenge against the BAU. I wouldn't mind seeing another revenge attack on the team/ teammember either an episode or fan fiction. Downside parts were not seeing much of Hotch or Emily & only a little more of Morgan.I don't like Todd very much, Morgan was trying to advise her with dealing with law officers. I'd hate if she wasn't so diplomatic to the relatives of the victims.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 11/21/2008 15:08:13

xzonia wrote: I wasn't trying to say Masterpiece alone, on its own, was a catchup episode, but rather the preponderance of Rossi in almost all the episodes when he first began the show was an attempt to help the audience get to know him better and develop the character. They did do the same thing with Emily, up to the point that I was starting to get a bit tired of her before Rossi joined the team. She just didn't annoy you the way Rossi clearly does, so it didn't bug you that she was in almost every scene and had several episodes about herself and her family.(I mean, come on! Em's mom, played by Kate Jackson, has already appeared in the show twice, which is more than we've seen Morgan's mom, btw, or any of Penelope's family. Didn't Penelope say once that she has 5 brothers?) And since Rossi joined the show, we've had the episode where Em and Reid were taken hostage together, which seemed to me to focus mostly on Emily. Pre-Rossi, the whole subplot with her maybe working with she-who-will-not-be-named to oust Hot from his position gave her character a lot of focus too.

I see a clear difference in how they had Prentiss. And, they only showed her mother one episode. Not two. "Honor Among Thieves" Which was the only Prentiss episode until Minimal Loss (and since "HAT" happened in season 2 - 11 episodes after Prentiss came, compared to Rossi getting one right off the bat- and "Minimal Loss" was in season 4 with no other episode that was a Prentiss episode in between (well, maybe Children of the Dark - but it's still seasons apart), I hardly see how that could be more Prentiss than anyone else). And, the subplot with Strauss, I'd say was much more of Hotch subplot. But, yeah, Prentiss was a part of that story, but being part of a story isn't the same as having it be all about you. If Rossi had gotten subplots in team stories or someone else's stories, that would have been fine. But, he got Rossi episodes. So far, in 3 whole seasons, Prentiss has had Honor Among Thieves and Minimal Loss (and maybe Children of the Dark). In one season, Rossi had "About Face" "Damaged" "Limelight" -not subplots, full on Rossi episodes. (Heck, the very first episode that brought up Strauss using her started as a Gideon episode and finished as a Hotch episode)And, I admit to some biases and to sometimes forming opinions based on those biases. But, I'm also capable of some objectivity, so no, my reasons for not being bugged that they did the same thing with Prentiss is not because I like her and I don' like Rossi. It's because I disagree that they did the same thing. I'd go episode by episode showing how they didn't, (which I did for the first three episodes for each of them, and was told I exceeded the character limit so I erased it) but I doubt anyone wants to read that longwinded thing. And, I love Reid, but I think he gets more than his share of focus. So, I can feel that way about characters I like - when I agree it's happening.

Woo Hoo! Thanks for the spoiler Bessie! I love when you do them! and I am even happiler to hear that...

Bessie I love reading all your points.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 11/22/2008 02:29:06

Hi again. Wow! My memory must be getting bad. I could've sworn Kate Jackson's been in two episodes already. Sorry about that! (Maybe that was just a dream I had.) I certainly can't itemize the episodes like you can. I enjoy watching the show - I don't commit them to memory. LOL. All I'm saying is that Rossi is a difficult character that they need more time to get the audience up to speed with to have a chance of liking him (the character, not the actor because I and many other viewers out there already love Joe M.). Personally, I don't mind them writing all the episodes they want to write about Rossi, but I do want them to cover the other wonderful characters on the show too.And I did feel Prentiss-ed out by the time Rossi joined the show. I don't know how many scenes she's been in vs him, but to me it felt like she was in almost every one her first year. I do like her; I just felt a bit hit over the head with her when she first joined the show. Kind of like you do with Rossi. And that is common for shows to do with newbies.I wouldn't worry about it too much, as they seem to be backing off and balancing out the show again. BTW, I'm really not into arguing back and forth, so this will be my last post on this subject. I go to message boards for the light-hearted chit-chat and general fan love of shows and characters (to have fun). I'll make the occassional serious post, but I'm not a debater. I do like reading your posts Bess, so feel free to keep on with it if you want. Just don't get upset with me for not responding further. I've had my say on this particular topic. (I hope I don't sound snarky here; I'm trying to be friendly.)

All I'm saying is that Rossi is a difficult character that they need more time to get the audience up to speed with to have a chance of liking him

To me, that would be the formula to use to get people to hate his everlasting guts. Well, maybe not people. Maybe just me. I mean, I have other reasons for disliking Rossi (all told in detail in the character thread - I think it was an I Hate Rossi thread) but one thing to get me to dislike someone is if they take away time from the characters I've grown to love and make them play less than supporting characters to the upstart. And, they pulled back, but too late. So, maybe that's why they did it and maybe it's a formula that works for other people watching (I'm only one person with one opinion) but for me, it's the perfect recipe for insta-hate. But, I'm not going to keep on that subject, but move on. Except to guess that maybe you confused Kate Jackson with Mel Harris? They both played government workers who knew Prentiss (obviously Kate Jackson, being her mother). And, Mel Harris played a Congresswoman in season 2 and she was a friend of Prentiss' mom.

I think you're right Bessie! I may have done that. You're one smart cookie.

Not to throw myself to the wolves (be gentle), but i think this episode was origionally written for Gideon and not Rossi. They obviously had to change some lines for him but i think the overall concept was Gideon based. My reasons are.1. Rothschild admitted it has taken him five years to come up with this plan. Rossi has only been back on the show for 1-1.5 years. Rossi was in retirement, there is no way that Rothschild could have predicted that Rossi would return so he could exact vengence upon him.2. Rothschild's motivation was vengence based. You took my family, I'll take yours. Gideon was the character that treated the team like family. He was the one who kept the pictures of his victims in his office like family photos too. Rossi is able to detach more--it's a job to him, yes, he wouldn't like his team being attacked and killed BUT not to the extent of Gideon.3. There were 2 lines that smacked of Gideon:A. "What did i ever do." Right after the reveal that Rothschild set-up the team and right before Rothschild starts up about how and why he killed them. It just feels like a Gideon line to me because it's taking this crime as personal, Gideon took all his cases personally. Rossi only takes some of the stuff personally.B. Garcia, make a tape for this, it will be a good teaching tool. Come on. Gideon was the teacher. Until this point, i don't remember anywhere seeing that Rossi teached--he wrote books, gave lecture talks, and made a ton of money in retirement--he didn't teach.

Admittdly, i've become a "little" obsessed with this episode, but has anyone else tried to find golden ratio, Phi or fibonacci numbers embeded in the show (besides the ones they told us about)?? I'm not into numbers, per se, but this episode has fascinated me to the point that i wanted to see if the writers snuck any of the Phi numbers into the episode, so i re-watched the episode writing down every number they said then searched Phi (1/0.61803...) to the 15,000 decimal place. I didn't find anything... which annoys me and makes me think i missed something. So, i'm just wondering if anyone else found anything?? I also looked up acids to see if there is an acid formula that matches the numbers, since they said that Rothschild's life would be permeated with it, but my biggest contenders (that would destroy a body) are sulfuric acid (H2SO4) and HCL, which doesn't fit any pattern i've seen. I did note that in the opening sequence, when we see all of Rothschild's things and heard his music (if anyone knows that piece of music i would be greatful--i think it's Chopin), i believe that the camera clicks are Phi is binary--lol but maybe i just want them to be...Here are the numbers i've pulled from the show in case anyone can see a pattern that i don't. 27275 97574 51079 30252 (5or12)1212 11531 25101 02739 30285 51771 48200 66647 83721 12351 80(4or1600)17 21389 51314 4512Now, i'm gonna go for a walk and clear my head of this... i hate numbers... lol

I think that you have very good points on that the episode was written with Gideon in mind & not Rossi. I must admit I didn't see or look for the connection until you mentioned it on here. Good call

Those are good points, Humroot! When Rossi said "What did i ever do", it did seem wrong to me. It's not at all like Rossi, but that would be an appropriate line for Gideon. You may be onto something there. As far as numbers go, I guess it depends on what information you look at. Someone obsessed with a certain set of numbers will find ways to have the world around them fit the numbers. For example, nitrous acid is HNO2. That's one hydrogen, one nitrogen, two oxygen (1 1 2), which begins the Fibanacci Sequence. The next# should be 3, and nitrous acid has a pKa (the negative log of Ka) of 3.25 (truncate to 3). The next number should be 5, and nitrous acid has a Ka (the equilibrium expression for the dissolution of a weak acid) of 5.62E-4 (which I know is stretching it to get a 5, but I'm saying a crazy person might jump at it). So right there you have 1 1 2 3 5 in nitrous acid (which unfortunately is a weak acid). However, add it to water (H2O) and you get nitric acid (HNO3), which is a strong acid that will severely burn skin. So you could instead say HNO2 = 1 1 2, then add water (H2O, which is three more atoms) 1 1 2 3, so you get HNO3 (five atoms) 1 1 2 3 5, and you have the sequence again.Also, we've basically added one more oxygen to the acid by adding water to go from nitrous (HNO2) to nitric (HNO3) acid. And what is the periodic number for oxygen? 8. What's the next number in the sequence? 81 1 2 3 5 8 A crazy person could work the numbers however they wanted to, really (and nitric acid is a clear, colorless liquid, so it'd work for the purposes of this discussion). So he could make the sequence work if he applied his mind for two minutes to the problem, and this character obsessed about these sequences.I hope that helps.

But to answer your question, Humroot, I didn't really try to find the numbers from the episode myself. I just did that right now for you. I just watched the episode, deleted it, and watched the next show I had taped that night. It was a great episode, but I watch a lot of TV. I know that you can find any set of numbers in pretty much anything in life if you look hard enough (at least I can, 'cause I'm a little nutty for numbers myself). LOL Thanks for the little mental exercise!

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