Latest posts for the topic "Discrimination in puppy maze event? "

Discrimination in puppy maze event?

samjenssen — GMT

Who constructed the puppy maze test? IMO, it was very discriminating toward only one breed; border collies.1. Only the border collies had a clue (they are natural herders and working dogs) and thus were the only ones to bring home the puppies. Which they did with joy and pride.2. The cute “little” puppies were larger than the small breeds; scary for the little contenders to have clumsy giants around them. No wonder they wanted to flee or snap at them.3. The other breeds are basically disinterested in puppies. Play with them maybe, but to look after them is not in their nature, especially the boxer.I own a border collie. She will herd ants, given a chance. Or elephants… I’m also owner of a small mix-breed pom/fox terrier who happily plays puppies of all breeds very well, but will snap at them (no harm done) to teach them manners. It’s in their respective DNA.That’s why I think the maze test was slanted unfairly. This was not about the bond between owner and dog.Never had a reason to chime in until now. Sammy

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

harpowins — GMT

It wasn't just slanted unfairly, it was tipped all the way over on the side. Neither Andrew or Bella had a chance against those puppies.

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

MissyMic — GMT

I agree completely!!!!!!!

Discrimination in puppy maze event?

agiletrainer — GMT

Oh, this had nothing to do with herding, and it wasn't the breed of the dog that mattered, it was the size and the speed (or lack thereof) that the dog worked at. Basically Leroy had a slow recall and that allowed the puppies to keep up. Seriously, you don't herd something by running in front of it, we didn't see any of the dogs do herding. It was just a totally ridiculous challenge, to think that the dogs could "lead" the puppies out. When I heard that I was thinking, what do they think, these dogs can be like "Babe" and ask the puppies to follow them out? So totally absurd. 5 minutes to acclimate a dog to puppies they have never been around?? Who the heck is the idiot coming up with these???

Discrimination in puppy maze event?

sabbes — GMT

[b]My husband and I gree with the maze race not being fair. We raised border collies and also have small dogs, there is no way the small dog would put up with puppies bigger than them. it was unfair. I can't help but to wonder who thinks up these challanges. I am thinking someone that has run out of ideas. Shame on them. Those judge if they were the dog people they claim to be would not have allowed this. It also puts a bad light on small dogs for those who don't know them. They were wrong to put Star and his person on the mat too. They ask them to get their dogs to preform and that is what he was doing, and doing with some class. He should have been put in that spot. I hope they read these forms and take a hint that the American people will not set back and allow those in TV to do our pets wrong.

samjenssen wrote: Who constructed the puppy maze test? IMO, it was very discriminating toward only one breed; border collies.1. Only the border collies had a clue (they are natural herders and working dogs) and thus were the only ones to bring home the puppies. Which they did with joy and pride.2. The cute “little” puppies were larger than the small breeds; scary for the little contenders to have clumsy giants around them. No wonder they wanted to flee or snap at them.3. The other breeds are basically disinterested in puppies. Play with them maybe, but to look after them is not in their nature, especially the boxer.I own a border collie. She will herd ants, given a chance. Or elephants… I’m also owner of a small mix-breed pom/fox terrier who happily plays puppies of all breeds very well, but will snap at them (no harm done) to teach them manners. It’s in their respective DNA.That’s why I think the maze test was slanted unfairly. This was not about the bond between owner and dog.Never had a reason to chime in until now. Sammy

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

MissyMic — GMT

Agile...you missed the last clip with the boarder collie...she/he definatley stopped and rounded those pups up...

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

kingregis — GMT

Dispite everything the little white dog did fine.

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

samjenssen — GMT

I totally agree; excellent try. But still failed to bring home ALL the pups. Sammy

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

kingregis — GMT

Do you actually think that was what the judges were looking for, bringing home all the pups?

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

samjenssen — GMT

Looking at my recorded tape; the challenge was clear - bring home the puppies. You win!

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

agiletrainer — GMT

MissyMic wrote: Agile...you missed the last clip with the boarder collie...she/he definatley stopped and rounded those pups up...

Are you serious?? I went and watched it again and I didn't see anything that resembled purposeful herding. Actually I didn't even see accidental herding! Leroy ran back into the maze (sort of like, where am I going and what for?) and didn't even *look* at the puppies until they went running by him (he just glances over at them as they go by "where did those guys come from??"). You can't call it herding when he wasn't even focused on the puppies and did nothing that effected where they were going (you don't see him circle behind them at all as a dog herding would do).

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

kingregis — GMT

I will have to agree with agile, didn't see much herding there.! I really don't think the judges were just looking for "how many pups were brought home" I'll bet you its deeper than "THE MAZE EVENT" itself. They may have possibly been looking for how the task was carried out by each team.

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

noahssmomma — GMT

I think a lot of the challanges they have are harder for the smaller dogs. The puppies were so much bigger than poor little Andrew how could he "lead" them if they were just toppeling all over him, what other choice did he have but to nip them into place. And I know my older dog would not tolerate 3 little puppies in his face either so I felt bad for Star. I don't think Bill did anything wrong but I know she was annoyed by the little ones.

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

dianne710 — GMT

I have 2 mini-aussies and they herd everything that's breathing. For them it's a natural instinct. I adore Leroy. He's my second fave after Star but I do agree that Leroy was not really herding them even though it should have been a natural thing for him to do. Herding is done from the rear and side. The puppies simply followed him. BUT...if you play it back you will hear someone saying these were "fresh puppies". so these puppies might have followed ANY of the dogs where the first 3 were just not "followers". That's ok...I'm just glad to be rid of that horrible what'shername. I was scared spitless for Bill and Star!If we went back through all of the various challenges I bet we'd discover that each one favored a particular dog. Over the long run it gives each of them a chance to make up for challenges that were not likely to be successful for them.

Discrimination in puppy maze event?

itsnotthedog — GMT

I agree. There was NO herding by any breed. And am I the only one who disagrees that Galaxy is a BC? She looks like a Pointer mix to me. I don't see BC in her at all. Big retriever ears and a square muzzle. Sorry not going for her being a BC at all!And for anyone who knows what "true" herding is the dog goes *behind* the animal being herded and around the sides to herd them to the desired place. There was NO herding going on. The dogs were clearly just looking for the owner and a way out of that maze. Puppies just followed because they saw a dog running and chased!This challenge was beyond stupid and unfair. Puppies are obnoxious and not tolerated by many adult dogs, especially 3 of them at one time!

Discrimination in puppy maze event?

agiletrainer — GMT

Galaxy is a BC-Pointer mix.

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

dianne710 — GMT

I wish I could keep Leroy and Galaxy straight! I misread your post...sorry about that.

Discrimination in puppy maze event?

dianne710 — GMT

ahhhh...thanks, agile!!! That makes more sense.

Discrimination in puppy maze event?

itsnotthedog — GMT

Leroy is all BC. I meant Galaxy. She doesn't look BC to me. Maybe she is BC/Pointer but I still don't see it. That's ok.Either way . . . still not impressed and no one, not Leroy OR Galaxy herded the pups. They did well but still no herding!

Discrimination in puppy maze event?

dianne710 — GMT

Now I'm getting the names mixed up! lol.. but I don't think Leroy looks pure border collie. I'm not disparaging him...he's just built a little differently than the borders I've seen.

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

A1Tess — GMT

It was slanted toward the brighter dogs. There was no herding but the winning dogs did communicate with and lead the puppies. Anyone who says it was a fluke or that border collies aren't far and away the brightest dogs in that crew simply has never raised or lived with a border collie.

Discrimination in puppy maze event?

dianne710 — GMT

A1Tess, I totally agree about borders! Borders and Aussies are scary-smart. It's just that he wasn't herding them. It doesn't matter...I'm delighted they won.

Discrimination in puppy maze event?

itsnotthedog — GMT

I don't think that challenge had anything to do with dog intelligence, breed or anything like it. None of the dogs except Presley (the Boxer) seemed interested in the puppies. They all could either care less or they wanted to get away from the pesky fluffballs. They clearly either just ran the maze to respond to the recall their owner had or to get out or both. I actually thought Preseley did great as he had a great recall! He just happened to lose because the puppies couldn't keep up with him and chase him to his owner at the end!

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

realitynot — GMT

Yes and then the "brighter dogs" sent a silent message to the Starship Entrerprise to come pick them all up and carry them to Disney Land!

Discrimination in puppy maze event?

dianne710 — GMT

Itsnotthedog,We'll have to agree to disagree. This challange was a herding dogs dream. It's just funny that he didn't herd them and won anyway.

Discrimination in puppy maze event?

itsnotthedog — GMT

I have a BC/Aussie cross. I know herding breeds well. I also train them (other people & theirs). It's not a herding dog's dream to herd puppies. Now put them in a pen with goats or sheep and you'll see their eyes light up!

Discrimination in puppy maze event?

dianne710 — GMT

LOL!!! I'll give you that one!!!

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

A1Tess — GMT

And children!! LOL

Discrimination in puppy maze event?

dianne710 — GMT

My two minis try to herd my 9 yr old grandson when he comes to visit. It's hilarious! What really is cool is when the smaller of them herds my 16+yr old half deaf anf half binld cocker mix. She goes outside with her and then leads her back in after she does her business. Both of the minis really look out for her....and alert me when she needs to go out too...as I said earlier...scary smart and instinctive too. My niece told me about aussies before giving me one (and I bought her sister so got the 2 sisters at once) but I didn't realize just HOW different they are from any other dog we've ever had. All of the good qualities times two....then there's the energy level...lol that's more like times 10!

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

kbettner — GMT

What idiot comes up with this stuff! Obviously not a dog person! It should have been clearly stated that it was about the realtionship not the getting the puppies back. The whole thing was stupid! When the judges started fighting, I could just hear the producers telling them to make up because it looked bad! Side note: Leroy looks pure to me. He may not be conformation perfect, but he looks like other border collies I see at agility trials. He looks a bit like the working BCs instead of the conformation BCs. Working BCs tend to be more rangy and leggy. I'm looking for a new agility dog and have been spending a lot of time on BC rescue sites.

Discrimination in puppy maze event?

lily_lou — GMT

i recall the host saying that the judges would be paying particular attention to the type of interaction the owner/trainer uses.. they seemed especially impressed with how calm and collected teresa was (as opposed to using intimidation or getting too hyper).. it seems the more confident and less stressed she gets, the better leroy performs, and i would not be surprised if they win the whole thing.. it may have been advantagious for herding breeds, but then again the agility challenges gave an advantage to agility dogs and the photo shoot gave advantage to show biz dogs etc.. i think there is enough diversity that all dogs get a chance to shine..

Discrimination in puppy maze event?

dianne710 — GMT

Exactly my point....you just said it better. Each competition may seem slanted to a particular dog but in the end the have all had that advantage. I want Bill and Star to win but Teresa and Leroy winning would also please me very much. I just don't want Galaxy to win...nothing against him..he is super...but his owner is too full of himself. lol (I do think Teresa's wonderful manner with Leroy has erased the snarl bands fiaco from the judges minds)

Discrimination in puppy maze event?

agiletrainer — GMT

itsnotthedog wrote: I meant Galaxy. She doesn't look BC to me. Maybe she is BC/Pointer but I still don't see it.

She is. It's right on their profile page on this site. I've seen many breeds mixed with BC, you can't go by looks alone on what a dog is. As for those questioning Leroy, he certainly is a purebred BC. These are not dogs bred for show (usually) they are working breeds and so the "type" for BCs can vary quite a lot. They can be smooth-coated, and I've seen a wide range of sizes and body types, and colors. The challenge...the only reason Leroy won was because he wasn't as well trained to come fast, as the other dogs are, he just came at a leisurely pace, so the puppies easily kept up with him. You can see they tried to follow Star, but she simply was too fast getting back to Bill. To try and come to any conclusion about the dog's intelligence from any of this is quite silly. I was most impressed with JD and Galaxy, their performance while not herding at least showed the type of fast response to a command to stop and wait that a herding dog needs.

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

realitynot — GMT

I'm sure ALL th owners have good and bad sides. None of them are perfect, I'm sure. But I don't agree that each challenge has been slanted toward each dog. None of the challenges have favored smaller dogs. Not one bit.

Discrimination in puppy maze event?

lily_lou — GMT

dianne we are definitely on the same page

Discrimination in puppy maze event?

dianne710 — GMT

Agile, you are, of course, right. I know that aussies vary a lot too. Even my two who are sisters look different. One has a very sleek shiny coat while the other has more of the thick fluffy coat...one has a blunter nose, etc. I wasn't taking that into consideration. I guess most of the BCs I've seen were the shorter, stockier type.............It's true that Leroy was slower....but they were also three different puppies from the ones previous dogs worked with. I still think there was a difference in the puppies. In the first 3 there wasn't a lead puppy that followed the dog. In the second batch there was...the other two follwed the puppy...not the dog.

Discrimination in puppy maze event?

lily_lou — GMT

ps, i also agree that though it may have been well suited for a herding breed because the task "resembled" herding, it wasn't entirely based on herding, more about keeping pace with the pups.. i don't think leroy's slow pace was due to not being trained for speed (he can sure be speedy when it's encouraged!).. i think it was just as the judges pointed out, that teresa's calm understated demeanor is what reflected in leroy's leisurely pace and helped the puppies keep up with him.. that worked better than those who got their dogs revved up and focussed on trying to beat the clock.. if teresa had used the stressed out tone we'd seen in earlier weeks, leroy woulda been all over the maze instead of staying on task as well as he did.. bill and star have always been my favorites but i also would be happy to see teresa and leroy win it

Discrimination in puppy maze event?

dianne710 — GMT

Well, realitynot, for one example, the dancing challenge was one that Bella Starlet should have done very well in...and you can bet the people who come up with the challenges knew it. ..I don't mean that ALL challenges are set up to favor a certain dog...but some definitely are.... I do know that some reality shows DO set things up that way...and I believe that they are doing it with this show. It doesn't matter...we can agree to disagree...................... ...Hi, Lily! TY!

Discrimination in puppy maze event?

dianne710 — GMT

Hi, Lily! We were typing at the same time. I agree with you about Leroys pace etc. but...part of herding is keeping the same pace...nudging the animals until they get where they are supposed to be. Very true about Teresa's demenor. This show has really helped me in working with my girls. I love it. I'm laughing...it just dawned on me...herding is SHOVING not leading...lol

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

lily_lou — GMT

i love it too i think since week one teresa is the one who seems to be applying what she's learning and improving week by week.. that's why she is starting to run neck and neck with bill as my personal favorites she doesn't stagnate, i can literally see her growing in confidence and performance right before my eyes, and leroy seems to be enjoying the experience too i hope star was just momentarily off her stride from the puppy stress and that she isn't starting to shut down.. i will cry if they get sent home, but on the other hand i'll be happy that they'll be able to be with their family again.. i think star is a very family oriented dog, and even though bill is her favorite she probably is pining for the rest of her gang just as he is, and they feel each others' sadness, it breaks my heart, but they're so sweet to watch together so fingers crossed that she'll perk up next week.. but who knows how any of those dogs are gonna react to an elephant! or how in the world are they gonna incorporate that into a dog challenge?? gotta give the show points for creative ideas even if they do get a bit silly at times

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

tink517 — GMT

Perhaps a better word to describe this challenge would have been shepherding rather than herding.shepherdingOne entry found.shepherd[2,transitive verb] Main Entry: 2shepherd Function: transitive verb Date: 1790 1 : to tend as a shepherd 2 : to GUIDE or guard in the manner of a shepherd my personal assessment of the challenge:I have to say that this was the most impressive challenge from all angles but two that I've seen to date.It displayed the owner/dog relationship, the application of training to a new situation, the dog's interaction with a new experience, the puppies along with the maze, displayed the dog's intelligence along with the owner's along along with the team's patience level.The two bad angles:1. Size of the puppies and age of the dogs involved should have come into consideration in the selection of the puppies. Why couldn't there have been six different type of puppies, perhaps a mix of pure and cross breeds to try to put each dog on a more even playing field?2. The number of puppies. Since time didn't really seem to play a role in the judging, why couldn't it have just been one dog leading one or two puppies. Two puppies would have brought the element of the puppies object of interest into play while I think that three was overdoing it from an endurance aspect.I think the number of puppies put the physical endurance of all those involved to the test. Puppies don't have a particularly long attention span, older dogs don't necessarily have the patience to deal with puppies and course length and the amount of puppies put the physical endurance of everybody to the test.Before watching this challenge, I was very skeptical of it because of the previews and the introduction of puppies into the whole bizarre mix of personalities of the owners, mix of training styles and the various ages of the dogs involved.In the commonly understood definition of herding I think it was a poor choice of words to describe the challenge. But looking at it from several angles, a dog walking behind the owner is not normally accepted behavior. Walking beside is preferable, and if they are a service dog performing their duties, with perhaps a few exceptions, most jobs require them to be in the lead. In this case, one might say the person who needed rescuing was the owner, the dog was guided by their voice, and led/guided the puppy (in a rescue this would be the owner/trainer) to a secure place.Respectfully. Tink

Discrimination in puppy maze event?

dianne710 — GMT

Lily, I really hadn't been thinking along those lines but yes, Teresa really has learned and grown more than any of the others. .....Star really is much older and because of that she's less quick to adapt that some of the others....and yes, more likely to stress. The poor old girl! It just dawned on me...if Star gets too stressed Bill will walk. He won't go to the end. He would never do that to her. (crossing my fingers that she holds up ok...but now I'm getting a bad feeling....)....My dream ending would be Star and Leroy being the final 2...assuming that's how the show is set up. (I watch way too much reality tv!!) If it were to be the two of them (well, the four of them!) at the end I wouldn't really car who took first place...and ya know what? I don't think they would either. .wooohoooo! I added my girls as my photo. They were about 3 months old there.

Discrimination in puppy maze event?

dianne710 — GMT

and yes...the elephant has me very worried.

Discrimination in puppy maze event?

dianne710 — GMT

Tink,herding = shovingshepherding = gentle shoving....LOLHmmmmm...well two puppies would have been easier...I think they didn't want it to be too easy..they wanted chaos...and that's what they got.The puppies were adorable...but I do think their size made it much harder for the smaller dogs. Alphas like the smaller of my mini aussies could do it (but not with all those people around!) but only because she's such a stubborn little thing. Her sister would have said, "the heck with this! Where's mom?"

Discrimination in puppy maze event?

tink517 — GMT

itsnotthedog wrote: I don't think that challenge had anything to do with dog intelligence, breed or anything like it. None of the dogs except Presley (the Boxer) seemed interested in the puppies. They all could either care less or they wanted to get away from the pesky fluffballs. They clearly either just ran the maze to respond to the recall their owner had or to get out or both. I actually thought Preseley did great as he had a great recall! He just happened to lose because the puppies couldn't keep up with him and chase him to his owner at the end!

Below are the top 10 breed rankings according to IQ tests that were given to them. These are as a group results. As we all know from personal experience the displayence (sp) of IQ can greatly very between subjects depending on both the issue and the individual(s) involved. Breed 1 Border Collie 2 Poodle 3 German Shepherd 4 Golden Retriever 5 Doberman Pinscher 6 Shetland Sheepdog 7 Labrador Retriever 8 Papillon 9 Rottweiler 10 Australian Cattle Dog

Discrimination in puppy maze event?

magnoliaso — GMT

Part I of II posts:I don't have time to read all four pages of responses, but I do think that this didn't have anything to do with herding. I think it had three simple goals.1. Problem solving. This was just to get through the maze.2. Socialization. Such as not getting nippy with unfamiliar pups.3. The ability to follow commands such as waiting when told to wait. If I'm not mistaken, JD was the only one who really used a sit and wait command. This is likely where Presley failed. I did feel for Star, but Bill had been told to "challenge" her, so he did, and then he got bit for it.

Discrimination in puppy maze event?

magnoliaso — GMT

Part II of II posts:It's interesting to note that Andrew didn't bring any pups in, but wasn't in the bottom three. I'm not sure what to think of that. One thing is for certain, this is proof that there was absolutely ZERO discrimination here as technically Andrew and Bella did the absolute worst.Once again, there are no clear rules here and this bothers me. I don't understand what the judges are looking for. It appears to me that they are judging only slightly toward a dogs ability, but mostly on the owners interactions with the dog. It's very inconsistent. They say to challenge a dog, then when they do they get fussed at (as mentioned above). They tell them to let up when a dog isn't interested, then when they do they say the dog looks bored and it counts against them.It can be very frustrating, and I'm sure the contestants will agree with me.

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

tink517 — GMT

It was actually Presley, the boxer, that did not shepherd any of the puppies in.Andrew, in fact, shepherded one of them back to Laurie. Maybe Galaxy's shepherding all 3 is an indicative of the communication he has with J.D. Maybe Andrew's doing well in the challenge despite his small size is evidence of Andrew's communication skill with both dogs and humans.Maybe Andrew's performance is proof positive of the old saying "Size doesn't matter"

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

realitynot — GMT

LOL what show were you watching, the Olympics? Andrew most certainly did bring a puppy in, only one, but he brought one in and he did so happily and was happy to try again, despite the puppies being larger than he is! It is one thing to "challenge" a dog and another to run him or her into the ground. I am shocked that Bill would force Star to keep going when it was clear she was completely stressed out and done. She actually laid down. If he had done something like this during an agility trial, people would be appalled and yet because everyone here is convinced he can do no wrong, they are ready to overlook his obvious, blaring error. Star's run was actually painful for me to watch. I felt so sorry for her.

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

disestablish — GMT

I agree with agiletrainer. There was no herding going on. I have working border collies and Leroy was not herding. The puppies followed Leroy because he went slowly and they were at the age that they would follow an adult dog. I don't think that Theresa thought about going slowly to keep the puppies with Leroy. She got lucky. She decided to keep him calm and do a low key recall and the puppies followed because they were able to. Leroy also did not herd at the end of the maze. Theresa sent him back into the maze because the puppies hadn't arrived yet, but he circled back out of the maze when Theresa's focus changed to the puppies and she stopped giving Leroy directions.

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

shelcat1121 — GMT

While Leroy may not have been herding the puppies by rounding them up, he was definitely "waiting" for them and looking back to see if they were coming, and going back to get them. And when they weren't with him, he ran back to see where they were and led the way. My border collie (who has never had any herding training) will do that with my little Aussie terrier. They will both be playing fetch, and my border collie will be faster getting her ball. She will start to run back to me, but then will turn around and check the progress of my little one. She will sometimes run a little back to see how the terrier is doing, and sometimes she will wait a little for my terrier to catch up, and then they run to me together. I don't consider that herding, per se, but she is definitely keeping an eye out on the progress. Leroy's actions reminded me of her.I do think that challenge was bound to be good for Leroy, but there have been other challenges that played to the strengths of some of the other dogs. I don't remember which one it was, but I remember Bill saying one of the challenges was right up Star's alley. And J.D., who routinely does disc dog routies with Galaxy, was thrilled about the dance challenge. So, yes, I think it definitely played to some dogs' strengths, but I have thought that of most of the challenges. I do think puppies are intimidating for a lot of dogs. And I agree that snapping is sometimes just the older dog's way of "teaching" a puppy its manners, in "dogspeak".I agree that these challenges are ridiculous, as are the judges. I hope next week that they don't force those poor dogs to "fly". I think they will be so scared. And I don't know what to think of the elephant!!

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

cpdttrainer — GMT

This challenge had nothing at all to do with herding. It also had nothing to do with "following commands." It appears that JD is the only one who was able to see his dog during the challenge. The others appeared to be completely bewildered as to where their dogs were. And unless Laurie and Beth Joy are 7ft tall, there is no way they'd be able to see their small dogs. I do think it did show problem solving skills much more than the ridiculous food behind the wall challenge from the week before.

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

shelcat1121 — GMT

I like Bill and Star a lot. But why do people keep saying about how "old" she is? Star is 7, just two years older than Leroy. But Galaxy is 9, two years older than Star. I don't think old age has really been a factor in the challenges. Personality has, and the dog's individual life experiences, and training, etc., but not old age. Speaking of age, they keep mentioning Presley's as being only one year old. But there were two other dogs that were only one also. Beacon was one of them, and I don't remember the other one. I was just curious why the show never mentioned it for the other two.

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

CarolfromTX — GMT

This seemed like more of a test of doggy charisma -- which dog were they willing to follow? Galaxy did well because the owner made her stop periodically and wait for the puppies to catch up. I felt sorry for Star -- she and Bill are my favorites. Clearly Star wanted nothing to do with the puppies. Frankly, I was ready for Bella Starlet and her owner to go.

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

tvcat1 — GMT

CarolfromTX wrote: This seemed like more of a test of doggy charisma -- which dog were they willing to follow? Galaxy did well because the owner made her stop periodically and wait for the puppies to catch up. I felt sorry for Star -- she and Bill are my favorites. Clearly Star wanted nothing to do with the puppies. Frankly, I was ready for Bella Starlet and her owner to go.

Those puppies took one look at Leroy and said "Border Collie- Yea lets follow him!" Leroy had a nice trot and puppies followed single file! LOL! Looks like he only had one slip up in the maze where he doubled back but that gave the puppies time to catch up anyway.At the end, when he came to the finish, the owner asked "Where's the puppies?" and Leroy started to go back to look but the puppies came around the corner!The smaller dogs were at a disadvantage but the puppies did the following behavior with them also. Andrew and Bella Starlet had trouble with the maze. If they kept going they could of brought the puppies threw. But stopping to figure out the maze just gave the puppies a chance to play/annoy the dogs.

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

flaminggorge — GMT

My suggestion for a future event: Judge the dogs and owners on which team can best transfer human thought into doggy lingo that best expresses "spare us from these two barking 'bitches' and the 'dork.'"

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

Dacrath — GMT

I am actually going to disagree with the prevailing opinion of this challenge. I actually liked this a heck of a lot more than many of the previous ones. This is supposedly about America's greatest dog. Not America's most creative dog owner. "Winning" (and I use that term loosely ) the photo shoot and art painting had nothing to do with the dog. They were all about what the owner could think up. This at least had something to do with the dogs."This seemed like more of a test of doggy charisma -- which dog were they willing to follow?"First, so what?? Is there any reason that a dogs charisma shouldn't matter? Or for that matter their ability to socialize with puppies? Second, the dogs that did the worst did so not because of a lack of charisma for the most part but an inability to either make it through the maze reliably (Andrew/Bella Starlet) or because they went through the maze too quickly and their owners did/could not slow them down (Presley/Star). I would have more sympathy for the entire Bella Starlet/Andrew were too small and at a disadvantage argument if the dogs, with or without a puppy in tow, actually made it through the maze consistently. Andrew made it through once. And had one puppy in tow. The same number of pups Galaxy had his first time through. And more than Star his/her first time through. His problems seemed to have less to do with puppies following him and more to do with an inability to go through the maze. Bella never made it to the end, so who knows if they would have followed or not. In any case, it seems Bella, like Beacon last week, was starting to regress. It might be better for both owner and dog that they are leaving.The argument that Teresa had an advantage because "She got fresh puppies" seems a bit silly as there were at least 9 puppies there and she appeared to go last (Although with editing, who knows for sure). I doubt they used the same set of 3 twice in a row with any of the contestants. But it also appears (again, editing can be deceiving) that 8-9 seconds in Leroy backtracks to make sure the puppies are still with him. Did she luck out to a certain extent? You bet. Thats life and enters into just about everything you do.

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

agiletrainer — GMT

Boy, people sure are attributing a LOT to these dogs, they weren't "shepherding" anything! None of the dogs had any CLUE that they were supposed to "lead" the puppies out, it was totally a matter of which dogs the puppies decided to follow which mainly was a function of the size and speed they moved. Leroy did interact more with the puppies as well compared to other dogs, which certainly helped. Again, a big advantage for a younger dog that was more willing to play with the puppies (it has little to do with charisma, and more to do with their age, and any past experience with puppies, not to mention the dog's size). The puppies followed Galaxy pretty well too, and she clearly didn't interact with them either (also being an older dog). I still don't get what dealing with 3 rather large puppies has to do with a dog being "great"! As for Leroy working at that speed because of Teresa, again, I think that's a hard conclusion to come to on what we've seen. That just seems to be the speed Leroy typically works, he did a recall at the same speed for the balance beam challenge which helped him win there as well, trotted to the food in the last episode even once he got around the wall, and was out very early in the obedience challenge in episode 2 I believe it is (where he almost lost in the first round which was a short recall, he heads off in another direction at first). Typically dogs that are trained for fast recalls don't need to be "revved" up, they will work at that speed regardless of what the handler does. With an actual trained herding dog, you use commands that tell the dog what speed to move, when to go fast and when to "walk up" slowly on the stock. In this case, it just seemed to be luck in terms of the speed he worked, I didn't hear her using an "easy" or anything that really told the dog to go slow, so it's hard for me to attribute that much control to them. Also, when Teresa tells him to go back for the puppies, he runs right by the first without even looking at it, and barely glances at the others as they go by him....it's pretty clear the dog has no idea that these puppies have anything to do with his task. Only Presley came at all close to doing that, and even then, it would be hard to say that he knew he was going back for the puppies (versus just going back for some reason). Just a note on herding...herding dogs don't shove or nudge, typically there is no contact at all between the dog and the stock (unless a sheep/cow/etc. refuses to move in which case the dog may "grip" or bite them to get them moving.)

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

realitynot — GMT

The smaller dogs have been at a disadvantage from day one in most of the challenges. Come on, let's face it, this was not a competition for small dogs. I'm not really even sure why they invited the small ones except for show and entertainment and the appearance of being fair, when all they have done is show how blatantly unfair it has been to them on almost every turn. We have 4 big dogs and 1 small dog left. Who do you think will win? No matter what he does I can almost guarantee it won't be the small one unless the challenges change considerably.

Discrimination in puppy maze event?

itsnotthedog — GMT

What does this have to do with anything. People I'm here to tell you that yes, you can find dogs that are quicker in learning that other dogs but all dogs can be trained! It's the owner, It's the owner, it's the owner! You need a good coach (dog trainer) and good communication and you can do *anything* with your dog!

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

realitynot — GMT

Not really sure who you are directing your post to but in case it is in response to mine, of course any dog can be trained, but I was referring specifically to the challenges. A toy breed dog bred basically to sit on laps will not be able to keep up with Sporting, Working, Herding or a combination of the two (Galaxy) if the challenges continue to be dependent on speed, agility and physical strength. From the preview it appears that's the route they are going. I don't care how he's been trained, the little dog is sunk.

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

flaminggorge — GMT

Train a dog to do anything? Neither my cats or me have been able to train my dog to use the litter box,

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

Bulldogink — GMT

We enjoyed the show and the maze challenge. I felt for JD when he got stuck with Laurie in the first challenge, but it at least worked out okay. I just feel for JD and Galaxy all together. Seems like no matter what JD does it isn't good enough. I thought he worked the maze excellently - showing what his dog could do. Galaxy listened to him even with the distraction of the puppies - which is what I think most of the maze event was about.

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

agiletrainer — GMT

shelcat1121 wrote: While Leroy may not have been herding the puppies by rounding them up, he was definitely "waiting" for them and looking back to see if they were coming, and going back to get them. And when they weren't with him, he ran back to see where they were and led the way.

I've rewatched this part of the show several times, and I don't see any moment where Leroy even acknowledges that the puppies are there. Again, herding dogs don't "lead the way", their instinct is to circle around the stock (children, whatever) and by their movement bring it to you. Not once did Leroy really even look at the puppies with any focus or intent (BCs are a "strong eye" breed and stare intently at what they are herding) when Teresa tell him to go back, he runs right by the first puppy without even looking at it and he has already turned and started to head back to Teresa before he even sees the other two. I'm not sure how you can come to any conclusion about him guiding the puppies from what was seen in the show.

Discrimination in puppy maze event?

itsnotthedog — GMT

<< >>I have trained several dogs to use a litterbox. . . so, again . . . right trainer and communication and you *can* train a dog to do anything.And to think that little dogs aren't able to do things like big dogs--wrong. Yes, if it involves physical strength maybe you are right but for training, tricks, obedience, agility, etc. Little dogs are just as capable . . . again: right trainer+good communication=all goals met! I have four dogs ranging from 10 lbs to 130 lbs. They are all quite capable of doing many of the same things and they do!

Discrimination in puppy maze event?

itsnotthedog — GMT

agiletrainer: I agree with you! Not sure how many times I've already said it: there was *NO* herding going on from *ANY* dog in this episode!!!! None of the dogs even cared about the pups and if they did it was b/c they were stressed and wanted to get away from them (the nipping from a few dogs which I totally thing is fine). Puppies were a poor, poor, poor choice for this. I am truly upset they did this challenge.

Discrimination in puppy maze event?

agiletrainer — GMT

I would agree that you can certainly teach little dogs to do a lot...but there are limits. I've seen a large dog retrieve a 5 pound dumbbell in his mouth...a small dog can't do that. Having events that are timed clearly put them at a disadvantage as well. Small dogs simply don't run as fast as big dogs, and no amount of training can change that. And frankly, most of these challenge simply have nothing to do with training! Certainly the last one didn't and this one clearly wasn't something that they had a chance to train for in any way. So I certainly agree with the complaints about it being biased for large dogs.

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

flaminggorge — GMT

Maybe the producers can make amends for favoring the big dogs by including an obstacle course in the next challange that includes running through an 8" pipe.

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

stuckeja — GMT

The puppies where a bad idea. Some dogs just don't tolerate puppy antics period, it has nothing to do with age, puppies have bad manners and some dogs are just more sensitive and intolerant.It was difficult for the smaller dogs having to deal with puppies that were bigger than them, Andrew did a wonderful job of tolerating the puppies until one almost stepped on him. He responded appropriately to discipline the puppy. Timed events over the same distance do discriminate against smaller dogs. A minaturized (same turns, less distance) and smaller puppies would have made the event a more even competition.Star was extremely uncomfortable, and Bill pushed her, possibly too hard. But as said before the judges are inconsistent, some times its you aren't pushing your dog hard enough, other times you're pushing too hard. Star put out obvious signs that she was stressed, but Bill didn't pick her up and force her around the maze, she did eventually follow him.Nobody did any herding, JD did do a good job of directing his dog to stop when she was losing the puppies, nobody else even tried this (although I doubt Bill, Laurie, & Beth Joy could see their dogs). Theresa did say she was trying to keep Leroy calm, I think she learned from the other big dogs mistakes of calling the dogs too fast where they lost the puppies, and I do think dogs can have different recall speeds based on if they have been 'revved up' or not.A better challenge. A longer/more complicated maze, with the owner elevated so they can see their dog. They must help the dog thru the maze using voice commands. This is a challenge to your training (can you teach your dog left, right and back up) and connection. Again to keep it fair to the smaller dogs their maze is a miniaturized version with the same turns, but less distance; or the allowed time is extended and times compared via ratio (eg. Big dogs 5 min limit, dog did it in 3 min, ratio 3/5 = 0.6; Little dogs 7 min limit, dog did 5 min, ration 5/7 = 0.71; Big dog wins)What they should have done

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

stuckeja — GMT

dang the website, that did have paragraph breaks to make it easier to read.

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

tillman522 — GMT

Double spaces fix that problem for me.

Discrimination in puppy maze event?

itsnotthedog — GMT

Yes. I agree that distance and certain things limit a small dog. I don't think they are capable of *everything* a large dog is capable of doing . . . I was just stating that it's not a matter of them not being able to be trained to do something (not related to the challenge at all) just saying in general . . . Of course a small dog can't pick up a 5lb dumbell as swiftly or easily as a large dog but I can tell you that my 10 lb JRT has picked up some insanely large objects to compete with other dogs. It *can* be done for some dogs!

Discrimination in puppy maze event?

lily_lou — GMT

dianne your babies are adorable, thanx for sharing them on your avatar i think it mighta been cool if each dog rescued pups of their own breed, it mighta been more fair size-wise.. on the other hand, using all the same breed of pups offered a consistency in the pups' temperament.. goldens are easy going and eager to follow along (as a rule) so that was a pretty good choice, and us bird dog lovers were glad to see some retrievers on the show for a change i still think the judges were looking predominantly at what tone the trainer/owner set and how the dog responded to it, that's what their comments seemed to indicate to me..but elephants??? yeah, ee-gad, now there's a herd we wouldn't wanna see! i think (i'm guessing) they're gonna set up a circus performance.. looks like bill and star will be the trapeze act! fun fun fun

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

realitynot — GMT

Why do you think agility venues have separate classes for dogs according to height? 'Nuf said. These challenges just were not thought out well enough. And from the previews it looks like next week is going to be more of the same. We see Andrew running up a ramp and Bill crying again. Geez Louise!

Discrimination in puppy maze event?

dianne710 — GMT

AGILE,I do beg to differ. I was referring to my own experience in my own situation...not dogs that work stock. I am also talking about natural instinct not trained herders. When they are herding a nearly totally deaf and half blind animal they most certainly DO shove her. Please remember my dogs are PETS not farm animals...we don't have any sheep or goats...lol.....and the "big sister" they herd wouldn't have a clue what was going on if they DIDN'T shove her. By the way...my original post about shoving was humor.

Discrimination in puppy maze event?

dianne710 — GMT

Lily, thank you. They look pretty much the same now...at 16 months old...just bigger and older.I too think that in most of the challenges the judges are looking at the owners and their manner of working with the dog than at the dog itself.Hey, guys, someone was wondering....if you unclick the disable HTML box below the text box all the extra garbage goes away.

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

crispie1 — GMT

I believe that Leroy is the border collie they speak of. Not Galaxy.

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

dianne710 — GMT

I had the names muddled for a while. Actually, neither looks totally like what I think of as a classic BC but as I was reminded last night, there is a lot of variation even within pure breds of a single breed...or a single litter as in the case of my girls.I have noticed last night and today that Leroy looks more classic BC (what I think of) in some photos (angles) than others. I guess it was the odd angle shots that had me wondering. Sometimes he looks more like Galaxy's mixed breed traits.

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

gcalahan — GMT

absolutely totally agree...and the judges are professionals....???? to put retiever puppies in with the small beeds was horrific, at most...can you imagine if elvis was still on competion? i have a mini fox (just recently adopted from a shelter)... i call her mini fox TERROR.was not at all fair - the worst of the competitons for these animals so far....these alledged professionals should be ashamed of themselves. i don't know of a animal outreach or ressue who wouldn't agree

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

LisaLaMunyon — GMT

My first comment anywhere on the web.The problem with the puppy maze was the same problem repeated in each test and is what this show is about. Give them something to do that doesn't come naturally to most dogs and put the owner to the test to challenge your dog and yourself to try to accomplish these tasks. The older and more solitary a dog is the less tolerant they will be of any puppy. The smaller dogs have a different challenge with the puppies being big. I see the biggest disadvantage was with Bill even with his extra time it was clear that Star was stressed and didn’t want anything to do with those puppies. She ignored them as all the dogs did but he kept sending her through the maze again and again and again and Star was so stressed she exhibited those signs licking of her mouth, lying down, etc. Bill really wanted to win and pushed Star harder than he would have in normal circumstances, but I think he knows he has a fighting chance at the prize and he values what hard work can accomplish. JD and Galaxy were superior in this exercise. He had complete control of his dog at all times. His dog did nothing more than any other dog did except to be directed to stop and allowed the puppies to catch up to Galaxy all the while with J D calling the puppies just like he did during the acclimation period. Go back and watch. He does nothing with Galaxy and everything with his voice during the acclimation period and the puppies seeing they get lots of love and attention if they go to that voice. That really paid off. They had his dog to help them find that voice but that was nothing more that the dog sitting and waiting for them to catch up. Nothing against Teresa and Leroy either they did fine but JD was the clear winner when I watch the show.Reality shows have infiltrated our lives. Some are much easier at least for me to watch such as the ones where people do their "real" jobs such as Next Food TV Star, Sheer Genius, Project Runway. This allows a much more even playing field and I find competition to be better because there isn't an obvious winner from the gate. I enjoy GAD because I've discovered the joy of rescue companions in my life and how incredibly rewarding it is to have the bond you can have with your dog by training them.The problem with all shows even GAD is that they like BIG RATINGS and to get that you have to have drama. They always have to have people on the show that are the "pain" to the "fan fav". It generates interest and that generates revenue with their commercials. I would love to see the show focus more on trained dogs and their owners like Star, Galaxy and Andrew and don't even have teams like David and Elvis, Elan and Kenji or Beth Joy and Bella Starlet.

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

shelcat1121 — GMT

I'm not saying Leroy was shepherding. I'm not saying Leroy was herding. But Leroy most certainly DID go back to see if the puppies were coming. He may not have known that was what he was supposed to do. But he did do that. He did *not* run straight through to the finish befor going back. I watched it 3 times. He turned around before he got to the end, while still in the maze, and before he saw Teresa and before she said anything and he went back to the puppies, then turned around again in front of them to go out. And when he got to Teresa, and she said something like, 'There's a puppy!", he turned around and, yes, he ran past the first puppy, as it was there already. He went by it and went back to the other two, then turned around when he got to them, and ran side by side with the last one to Teresa. Was he running back to "get" the puppies? I don't know any other reason he would be running back just to the point of the puppies before turning around. Perhaps he didn't understand exactly what it was all about. But he did a really great job. In the other challenges, I'm not sure the other dogs that won always knew what they were doing, whether it was "dancing" or anything else. So why is there so much criticizing of Leroy's performance? I happen to think he did go back for those puppies, even if he didn't know why or what everything was about.

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

agiletrainer — GMT

He ran back because Teresa pointed back in and gave him a command that he interpreted to mean to go back...but had no idea for what. He is starting to turn to go back to her *before* the last two puppies come in view (watch it closely, he turns in the opposite direction and never sees them) and it's clear that his actions (going back into the maze) had nothing to do with the puppies finishing it. They don't go out "side-by-side" the puppies were running and passed him on the way (at which point he first notices that they are even there, and stops to give them a sniff). I'm not criticizing his performance, but he simply did not show any understanding of the puppies being part of his task, any more than any other dog did, and mainly succeeded due to coming through the maze at a slower pace...but still at a fast enough clip that they went into "follow" mode.

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

babyunagi — GMT

Hi, all! My first post, too! Much of what I want to say has already been covered, but my basic question about this otherwise very entertaining show is the odd choice of challenges that the judges have set up to measure very different breeds. I will grant that it must be almost impossible to measure a Maltese against a BC, but even knowing that, the judges don't seem to be very forgiving. Victoria (I think it was) actually chided Laurie because Andrew nipped at one of the puppies, whereas, as someone has mentioned here, I think that Andrew was appropriately disciplining a larger puppy that was about to run right over him. I almost felt that Victoria was guilty of anthropomorphizing Andrew a bit, putting a "good" or a "bad" value on his nipping, instead of seeing it for what it was: a typical canine disciplinary measure, meted out to a wayward youngster. Dogs have no other way of letting another dog know when they are getting out of hand--there are no canine "time outs." Andrew gave one nip, and then returned to being his happy-go-lucky self. Also, I agree with the small vs. large dog disparity with several of the challenges. The hedge maze and the "find the food" maze with the large walls illustrated how lost the little dogs were when confronted with a physical obstacle that was so large as to be insurmountable, in their eyes. That was a severe design flaw in the challenges, IMHO. And since only two dogs out of the entire group successfully completed the maze challenge at all, I question the intelligence of the design of the event to begin with. I don't think this was necessarily a "herding" challenge alone, per se--there was more going on than that, among the traits looked for being how well all of the contestants' dogs got along with new faces, but even so, Victoria even misread some of the things going on. She accused Bill of "calling Star through the maze too fast," several times, when, in fact, Star was racing through the maze as fast as she could of her own accord, not wanting to have anything to do with the puppies. And yet, it seems kind of sad to me to fault Star, who is otherwise such an incredibly willing-to-please partner to Bill, for simply not liking kids of her own kind. Finally, the other aspect of the show that makes me shake my head is that the judges--especially the two females--can never seem to agree with each other on anything. If they are doing this just for the sake of TV drama, then sorry girls, but you just come off looking stupid. One of them loves a photo. The other one hates it. And when Wendy told Ron that Tillman's photo was "The worst photo of a bulldog that she's EVER seen," or something similar...?! Good lord. Get out more, lady. Are we really supposed to trust the judgment of these three dolts? They hate a dog's painting because...? Oh, good lord. Don't get me started on THAT one...And next week, what? Your dog didn't parachute well enough? Gravity was too strong for Star? Presley is allergic to elephants? It's like a train wreck...I can't look away.

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

tink517 — GMT

Oh my God!!!Agile are you trying to tell us all that you a viewer, can communicate with Leroy and he tells you his interpretations of what Teresa, his owner, who has constant contact with him everyday, and relay themTO us the rest of the viewers.I can just see the advertisements now.AGILETRAINER, DOGGIE PSYCHIC TO THE STARS!

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

agiletrainer — GMT

tink517 wrote: Agile are you trying to tell us all that you a viewer, can communicate with Leroy and he tells you his interpretations of what Teresa, his owner, who has constant contact with him everyday, and relay themTO us the rest of the viewers.

Hey, you can make fun of me if you want, but having worked with and trained dogs for over 20 years, and specifically worked with herding dogs and having done herding myself, I can certainly watch and make some *very* educated conclusions about what I see. When you do sports like agility and herding and progress to the highest levels in these, one thing you really learn is how to a read a dog and understand what their eye motion and body movements are saying, and can make conclusions from that about what they are thinking and are likely to do next. It simply is critical to success in these kinds of sports....and the dogs often read the handler in the same way. Doesn't matter if it's your dog or another, the basic patterns are the same. No mind reading involved, it's simple observation. Is it *possible* Leroy had some clue at all about needing to go back for the puppies? Sure, it's possible. We only saw about 10 seconds of him going through the maze, after all. But going strictly on what we saw, everything in what he did, where his eyes went, when he turned, where his focus and attention was, all that leads me to a different conclusion.

Discrimination in puppy maze event?

dianne710 — GMT

I guess the bottom line is that the judges could see what was happening...the entire run of each dog. We are subject not only to camera changes but editing. None of us is a mind reader of dog or owner. We can each only subjectively judge what we see. In some cases we see what we want to see. In other cases we can only guess what really caused a dog to move one way or the other...look one way or the other, etc. and as with witnesses of a crime we all see different things. Some of us even stay with the same interpretation even after reviewing the video. Our first impression is hard to shake at times.It's just interesting to me that the judges now seem to possibly know things that happen when they are not around..while in the first couple of shows there were things they SHOULD have been able to see before judging who was or was not a good dog owner. Heaven knows we screamed bloody murder a few times here in the forums...maybe TPTB listened!

Discrimination in puppy maze event?

itsnotthedog — GMT

In defense of agiletrainer, I *completely* agree with you on the explanation of why/what Leroy was doing. You don't have to be a psychic for God's sake you just need to know how to read body language in a dog! Also, if you have trained dogs (as agiletrainer obviously has) for 10+ years (like myself) then yes . . . you can tell what Leroy is doing . . . very easily I might add. You actually worded it perfectly in your description of his body language and his interpretation of Teresa. Seriously, I wouldn't change a word or disagree on any of it! Right on. No psychic abilities needed!

Discrimination in puppy maze event?

itsnotthedog — GMT

dianne710:You don't need a farm or stock dog for them to know how to herd properly. Pet dogs herd improperly because they are not taught how to herd (not a big deal) but usually it's an energy outlet to them and it is done in the wrong manner. However for the dog this is rewarding, hence the behavior becomes fun and this is what they do. There isn't a lot of training for herding dogs other than teaching them left, right, back off, get those, etc. But the instincts are all the same. If a dog is shoving another dog they are bullying, even if they aren't being "mean" per se. But that is absolutely *not* herding, it's bullying. Now if your dog allows the shoving then your dogs doing the shoving are getting rewarded hence why they do it often, if they do. I suggest a really good read: Turid Rugaas's book on dog body language.

Discrimination in puppy maze event?

tink517 — GMT

samjenssen wrote: Who constructed the puppy maze test? This is the question that was posed in originators entry.The answer is out there.There being somewhere back in the topics if you search for ityou will find the answer to your question.I'm too lazy myself to go back and look for my originalposting with the answer but I'll give you part of the name,if I remember correctly, is Daniel, as in Lion's Den.

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

tink517 — GMT

Just went back and did a quick check on my memory,while the Daniel might work on the web.That would raise the level of difficulty too high.McMillan, as in McMillan and wife, is a better clue.P.S. - Since the forum on her website seems to be disabled at this time, you'll have to find anotherway to contact her directly.

Discrimination in puppy maze event?

agiletrainer — GMT

itsnotthedog wrote: Of course a small dog can't pick up a 5lb dumbell as swiftly or easily as a large dog but I can tell you that my 10 lb JRT has picked up some insanely large objects to compete with other dogs. It *can* be done for some dogs!

Thanks for the notes of support on my comments about Leroy, I feel out here by myself sometimes arguing for logic! I had to laugh at this post of yours earlier about your JRT....well, we all KNOW those dogs are insane! Do you know of Susan Garrett? Her first JRT Shelby was famous in agility because her reward after a run was not food, not a toy, but a rock! It was her favorite thing in the world. JRTs truly are in a class by themselves.But I do think it's good not to put limitations on our dogs and what they can or can't do. A friend of mine does weight-pulling with her sheltie. Everyone always laughs when they see this little dog come out to compete with all the bully-breeds...but by the time he is done, the whole audience is madly cheering at how awesome a puller he is! P.S. To fix the encoding on your posts, just click the Edit button and then Submit it again. It should look right the second time.

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

redcastle9 — GMT

OH ... you know what would be entertaining? ... put each of the judges in a room with three rambunctious preschoolers and tell them they have to make the preschoolers accomplish some complicated task in 5 minutes. Oh, I SO would watch that.

Discrimination in puppy maze event?

tink517 — GMT

agiletrainer wrote:

itsnotthedog - Of course a small dog can't pick up a 5lb dumbell as swiftly or easily as a large dog but I can tell you that my 10 lb JRT has picked up some insanely large objects to compete with other dogs. It *can* be done for some dogs! [/quote wrote: Thanks for the notes of support on my comments about Leroy, I feel out here by myself sometimes arguing for logic!

Maybe a better pre position might have been without.

Discrimination in puppy maze event?

doggielvr — GMT

tink517 wrote: Maybe a better pre position might have been without.

Why are there all these snide comments from you to this poster? He clearly is very knowledgable about dogs and has not insulted you that I can see. I enjoy the insight of the more expeirned trainers on this forum and it bother me to see them treated so poorly by other people. If this is the most constructive thing you can addt to the discussion perhaps it should be just sent privately

Discrimination in puppy maze event?

dianne710 — GMT

ITSNOTTHEDOG,Not to be snippy but what is it about DEAF AND BLIND that you don't understand? They HAVE to shove her.(said in the kindest possible exasperated way)

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

agiletrainer — GMT

Dianne - I can understand you being annoyed but I didn't read it to mean that your dogs *shouldn't* use physical force, just that it wasn't herding. Not entirely sure I agree though. It certainly isn't what we would traditionally consider herding, and not something you'd typically ever see a trained dog on stock doing, but really anything a dog does that influences the movement of the stock could be considered herding.

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

dianne710 — GMT

They look after her and guide her from place to place. I can say,"Go get Maggie, bring her in the house." (if they aren't already with her) and they do it. In the "common" usage of the term, to non-pros like me, that's herding. We're just quibbling between common usage and prefessional usage of the word.

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

agiletrainer — GMT

They look after her and guide her from place to place.

Yup, and that to me is herding! Certainly any definition of the word in the dictionary would agree. Die-hard herding people can be a tough bunch though...there are quite a few out there that won't even bother with dogs like mine, because they aren't border collies and they don't consider them worth spending time on. But boy, I sure do love to watch those folks work their dogs! Seeing a shepherd controlling two dogs at once from 1/2 mile or more away with just a whistle...it's impressive stuff. My newest puppy is from herding champion stock, so I am looking forward to seeing what he can do! But I merely dabble in the sport, so can only watch and be awed by what the top trainers do.

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

tink517 — GMT

Agile, Congratulations on your new puppy. May you have many happy years togetheras a team. Had a Collie once, Beautiful loving animals, did have a problem with hispulling the wallpaper off the walls in spots during the day, I guess he was likea Brittany on this one, he finally got tired of having to do the "same job" over andover again. As my husband named him Bubba, I would just sigh and verbally express my exasperation, and repair the damage done that day.

Discrimination in puppy maze event?

dianne710 — GMT

accck. I responded and then everything locked up and the whole post is lost in space. I'll try to reconstruct it...I think experts in almost any field can be pretty hardnosed...propriatary (sp?) ..as though they want to keep out the riff raff...lolI've never seen herding in real life but really have enjoyed watching what I've seen on tv. The way Galaxy sits and stays *instantly* even under very odd circumstances blows me away. As to Victoria jumping all over he owner (JD?) I can't really judge as I don't know what he does other than the scruff grabbing thing. I guess I need to go back and watch all the shows again. IMO, Galaxy is the best "already trained" dog on the show...but I really dislike JD's demenor with people...it's hard for me to root for the team. With another owner I'd have a hard time deciding between Star and Bill, Leroy and Teresa, and Anyone but JD (or Beth!!!) and Galaxy.To me dogs are a lot like children. Some need a firmer manner than others. Generally, love, praise, and yes, treats go a long way to developing a well trained, secure, and happy (not fearful of it's owner) dog. What do you think??By the way, Victoria get's great results on her show (altho they wouldn't show failures, would they?? lol) but what a twit she is on GAD!

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

tink517 — GMT

Dianne, Will you "adopt" me? I promise to behave.

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

dianne710 — GMT

As long as you don't pee on the carpet....LOLOL!!!!!

Discrimination in puppy maze event?

agiletrainer — GMT

dianne710 wrote: accck. I responded and then everything locked up and the whole post is lost in space.

I've learned to make a copy (ctrl-C) of my posts before I submit them just in case...this forum is definitely very flakey!

The way Galaxy sits and stays *instantly* even under very odd circumstances blows me away.

Yeah, that is so critical in herding, although it can be a totally different thing when the dog has sheep in front of them! It used to drive me crazy that my wonderful, biddable sheltie that had top-level obedience titles, would get on sheep and just totally ignore me! I'll tell him to "down" and he'd look at me like "Are you nuts?? There are SHEEP here!" But they soon learn that when they don't listen, they *don't* get to herd. But until then, it's some good exercise for the handler to try and block the dog from getting around you to the sheep!

I guess I need to go back and watch all the shows again. IMO, Galaxy is the best "already trained" dog on the show...but I really dislike JD's demenor with people...it's hard for me to root for the team.

I agree with all of this...but the funny thing is, he sneers at Laurie for using food, but he's a *frisbee* trainer! That's R+ training! When he did the dance routine, he had a tennis ball the whole time. That's clearly a motivator for his dog, so NO DIFFERENT than carrying food around with you all the time. I have no doubt he uses corrections when he feels they are warranted, but the bulk of frisbee dog training is basically R+/P- type of training (do what I ask, and you get the disc). And unlike training with food for something like obedience, where the dog eventually has to learn to work without the primary motivator present, with frisbee dogs, you get to bring the motivator in the ring with you. So it showed me he really hasn't a clue about reward-based training, and I wish Laurie had called him on it!

Discrimination in puppy maze event?

dianne710 — GMT

Let's see if I am doing the "quote" thing correctly...If I don't, well...you know what you wrote!I agree with all of this...but the funny thing is, he sneers at Laurie for using food, but he's a *frisbee* trainer! I think my girls would prefer the frisbee to food treats! That's R+ training! When he did the dance routine, he had a tennis ball the whole time. That's clearly a motivator for his dog, so NO DIFFERENT than carrying food around with you all the time. I'd forgotten about the tennis ball but yes, I noticed it at the time. he really hasn't a clue about reward-based training, and I wish Laurie had called him on it! He's definitely not a rocket scientist which would be totally forgivable if it were not for the cocky attitude. As an old goat, it really bugs me. LOL When the judges slap him down he looks so totally stunned and "What's wrong with you people?"

Discrimination in puppy maze event?

redcastle9 — GMT

I actually kind of like JD, and that's surprising because usally arrogant people set my teeth on edge. The thing that impresses me is how incredibly well trained Galaxy is. That sort of thing takes persistence and patience even with the most malleable dog.

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

cpdttrainer — GMT

I think Laurie did call JD on it. I remember her saying "it's the same thing" when he commented on using praise or a toy. Of course he said it wasn't. I'll have to go back and watch again.

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

samjenssen — GMT

Lisa, you summarized it very well, and you are completely correct.

Discrimination in puppy maze event?

itsnotthedog — GMT

dianne710,I do have to apologize. I don't think I ever remember seeing that your dog is deaf & blind. I thought your other 2 were just shoving her around! And again . . . gotta say that agiletrainer says it well again!

Discrimination in puppy maze event?

dianne710 — GMT

All is forgiven. I did mention it at least twice in different posts but we were all pretty wound up...and we can't expect everyone to read and remember evvvvvery post we make, right??? I know *I* do babble on and on and on.....lol

Re:Discrimination in puppy maze event?

agiletrainer — GMT

cpdttrainer wrote: I think Laurie did call JD on it. I remember her saying "it's the same thing" when he commented on using praise or a toy.

I did check myself on this and you are right, she said it what the same thing when he talks about saying "good dog". I guess I was thinking more in terms of using a toy as a motivator, as something extra the handler has to have with them, but yeah, Laurie did still pick up on this, so good for her!